Doing the 'Nasty' is Nasty?
In Yoinoson Schreiber’s posting “You've Had Quite Enough Already”, Yoinoson brings up a good question regarding the sexual and social boundaries the halacha establishes around sex and intimacy. He asked there that comments be post-card-sized and I obeyed his wishes there. I’d like to give the longer version here. Please read his post.
I don’t know what sort of instruction Orthodox Jewish women receive regarding sex and intimacy from their mechanchim outside of the Laws of Nidus. I don’t know if they get any tips on how to make it pleasurable or how to please themselves and their husbands. I have no idea what ideas religious girls may or may not share amongst themselves. I don’t know if they have sexual fantasies, nor do I believe many of them have any sexual secrets they are hiding from parents or teachers. I just plain don’t know unless somebody tells me, and even then, I’d be very skeptical. Maybe I had a sheltered adolescence.
I do know what I was told about sex, and that amounts to basically nothing outside the religious rules and regulations which, for the most part, force one to do absolutely nothing. There is a Gemara, for example, (someone remind me where it is) that tells of a Tana, upon having to meet his marital obligation (sex with his own wife), behaves as if some evil demon has overtaken his body! I’ve had some pretty strong erections, but I’m not sure I would describe it as a ‘demonic possession.’ What this little passage of Talmud reflects is an attitude toward a man’s sexual desire, even for his own wife, that underlies Orthodox thinking. If you think the Catholics are crazy, try this short list of do’s and don’ts on for size.
1) Masturbation is strictly forbidden. In Hebrew it is referred to as Zera L’vatala, which translates as ‘wasted seed’. If you remember the Monty Python movie song “Every Sperm Is Sacred”, you will understand the gist here. Sex is primarily for procreation. This is also why anal sex, oral sex, and hand jobs are also stricken from the list of Orthodox Jewish sexual acts. If the sperm don’t go where they are supposed to, something is very wrong in
2) Sexual thoughts are forbidden. The Gemara says that “one who looks at nakedness, will eventually become impotent.” Even the thought or incidental sighting of anything remotely erotic will doom you to not having your ‘winky’ work when you finally get the chance. (It’s true that one could ‘burn out’ from constant arousal, but catching a glimpse of a fine piece of ass or imagining yourself making love to one of the occasional female commentors on your blog is not what I’d call an addiction. )
3) Wet dreams are a sign of spiritual deficiency. Having a wet dream on Yom Kippur means real trouble. It isn’t enough that your adolescent male body is raging with hormones imposed upon you by the cruel nature that HaShem created you in, but you have to actually feel guilty because of your biology! We blame the toilet because it flushes!
4) Do not sleep on your back or stomach. Either position causes wet dreams. This is true. To date, I have never had a wet dream when awake. Wet dreams, or nocturnal emissions, are not caused by sexual thoughts. I have had more than a few, and the dream parts had no sexual content.
5) One should not hold one’s penis when urinating since that might arouse one to masturbation. This explains the urine stained walls in our mikvahs, and also why Jewish wives hire shikzas to clean the bathroom. Jewish men can aim properly, we’re just not allowed to.
6) A man should approach his wedding bed as one would his death bed. This much I agree with, which is why I avoid marriage at all costs. Now why would anyone say this to a young man approaching his first sexual experience? Do they tell this nonsense to the woman, too?
7) Sexual thoughts during sex negatively effect the health of the child and the purity of its soul. A man should think about Torah during sex. The New Age movement picked up on this little bit of kabalistic nonsense, and started their own version of it. Don’t get me started. Apparently, it’s more important to have the right thoughts while making the child than to have any thoughts about raising it. Once again, it’s all about conception and NOT pleasure.
8) Talking during sex is forbidden. Sex is apparently a mitzvah not to be taken lightly. It’s like a shmoneh esrei of sorts, only quicker. Since it was a mitzvah, I thought of course that my ex-wife, the ‘Machsheyfa Suprema’, would be eager to fulfill it, and often! Oh, wait. It’s not that kind of mitzvah. Sex is a mitzvah ‘sheh haz’man grama’. When is the z’man? Whenever she feels like it. If that happens to be never? Oh well.
9) Sex is a necessary evil. If we could make more Jews without it, all the better. See #1 through #8.
10) Missionary position only! If the woman gets on top that is considered perverse. The man is always on top. No doggy-style either. You will be hitting that booty one way and from only one direction. If you happen to have a copy of the Kama Sutra hidden behind your copy of Bava Kama, please discard it immediately. It won’t do you any good at all.
11) The act of sex is generally considered unclean and one may not pray if one has dried semen on his or her clothes. Women go to the mikveh before sex, but men go to mikveh after sex. If sex weren’t thought to be nasty, then why hit the mikveh? (Technically, a good shower is enough to remove the juices.)
Now I know there is lots of talk about how couples should interact and about Orthodox ideas about love and sex that sound very modern and enlightened. I’ve seen all kinds of books by the Chasidic media whores like Shmuel Boteach, and they provide me with a few minutes of humor at best. Let’s remember what the ‘source’ has to say about it, and not believe the spin and hype that the modern day Kiruv movement puts on sexual matters. Those hucksters will do and say anything to keep you interested. If ¾ of the men knew what they were getting themselves into beforehand, Aish HaTorah would have a hard time fielding a minyan.
As Yoinoson pointed out, the Chazal have deemed it necessary, even where the blood is not Dam Nidus (menstrual), to separate man and wife immediately after their first sexual enocounter together. That’s just cruel and unusual punishment. From the time I am 12 years old until the wedding night, all the while sitting on the worst case of ‘blue balls’ in recorded history, and I get to use it once? And then have to wait again? What kind of sadistic cruel nonsense is that? Yet, taken in context of what we’ve seen, I’m not surprised at all.
To be fair, there are passages and sayings that do speak outside the context of ‘conception- only’ thinking. There is one place that discusses sex during pregnancy offering advice on how sex could hurt or help the child grow. There is another that actually addresses the realities of faithfulness and love and how sex, even when outside of procreation, is necessary to form strong marital bonds and keep men in line. (See #9) The notion that all things can be worked out without physical contact is plain nonsense. That might be great for friendships, which marriage should be in part, but for husband and wife that sexual bond is part and parcel of their Shalom Bayis, and the special means by which they connect to the exclusion of all others.
To further the ‘conception-only’ idea is our Laws of Nidus. It is no coincidence that mikveh time falls out right around ovulation. To assume that Chazal didn’t intend it as so is to try and retrofit their words with modern thinking. They knew. They also knew how to control the people by controlling their relationships. A man would never pledge more allegiance to his wife (or his own penis) than he would to their authority. Many cults use sex as a means of control. Sadly, many spouses do, too.
You have to wonder at the lengths the Chazal went to in restricting and regulating sexual relations between married people, and how these rules and attitudes have effected our own sexuality. Most don’t know the difference so it’s no big deal. I think they are the lucky ones in a way. Until I had my first really good lay, I didn’t know it could be better either. Ignorance can be bliss sometimes because ignorance doesn’t create conflicts.
Kol Tuv
18 Comments:
Hayim,
That was a joke. I'm sure you'd heard that Breslover Chasidus has a 'hard-on' for maturbation, meaning that zera levatala seems to be a focus.
Kol Tuv
It's interesting that a religion that could produce the Song of Songs could also have the attitudes you describe.
What about the role of beauty? It's no coincidence that the Greek and Roman goddess of love, Aphrodite (Venus) was also the goddess of beauty. Eros, beauty, and pleasure are all linked. There are passages in the Song of Songs which poetically describe the beauty of the lover.
Tamara,
Good comments. However, the culture that produced those 'negative' attitudes will also tell you that Shir HaShirim is NOT about human love, but of the relationship between HaShem and the Jews. Shir HaShirim is considered by many to be a metaphoric work.
When was the last time you heard of an ultra Orthodox Jew writing love sonnets to a woman? (I HOPE there are some who do! Lucky would be the Rebbetzin whose husband wrote more to her than shopping lists!)
Kol Tuv
I heard about these restrictions.
But on the bright side, I heard that sex b/t a husband and wife is a very holy act b/c it brings about children.
Sad to see that you had such a twisted Jewish education. Most of the restrictions you cite are distorted and you are giving readers the wrong impression about Judaism. Just to name one example for illustration:
Talking during sex is forbidden. That's not actually true. In fact it's patently false. Is there not a Chassidic book somewhere that states this? Maybe, but this (and most of what you write) is out of touch with mainstream Orthodoxy.
But I'm even more dismayed that you would publically denigrate an entire group of Jews just for some cheap lagus. Guess you really did leave observant Judaism!
Interested in a new perspective on Judaism that you've never heard before? www.daasbooks.com ... this is not a spam, this is from one Jew to another. I've been where you are, and I know the ups and downs.
Rav Seinfeld,
What is 'mainstream' Orthodoxy? In my travels many of the 'mainstream' Orthodox played fast and loose with halacha, and chumros of any kind were virtually unknown.
If one has enough background from the Talmud, Shulchan Aruch, and the Kabala (not to mention the 100s of lesser rabbinical opinions), one knows exactly what I'm talking about here. The fact that many of the rules (talking for example) are ignored by many couples in not the issue here. I am speaking in terms of how the religion seeks, through the establishment of rules and a healthy dose of myth, to control the sexual and reproductive lives of its followers.
Telling lies to gain social control is a bad habit that religion has and it's not limited to Judaism. So why do I pick on Yiddishkeit? That should be obvious.
Much surrounding the attitudes toward life are garnered from personal conversations with respected Rabonnim over the centuries and passed down, sometimes through stories and sometimes it ends up in the books like the Sefer Minhagim, a collection of chumros and minhagim of the Chasidic Rebbes of Europe. Those chumros are taken very seriously, because everyone wants to be holy as he he can be, and doesn't with to appear out of lock step with the rest of his clan.
Ravinu and Rav Ashi compiled the Talmud and decided to include the story of our Tana (the one who thought sexual desire for his wife was akin to demonic possession). Now, if he wasn't the norm because he was mentally unbalanced, then why did Ravinu and Rav Ashi mention him? Obviously to teach us menfolk (women don't learn Gemara) that sex is naughty, and at best, a necessary evil that they should fear even when they are obligated by mitzvah to do it.
In my orthodoxy, The Gemara was considered written in Ruach HaKodesh, or at least with the kind of care and concern that goes into any major work of Jewish thought, and therefore not to be taken lightly.
Kol Tuv
Yoisoson sent me an e mail reminding me of a few other rules that I forgot to mention. Yasher Koach!
#12. No sex during the day. 'Afternoon delight' is not going to happen.
#13. No sex with the lights on or without covers. The rules of Tznius apply between husband and wife as well. A man should never see his wife naked. No showering or bathing together either. That is considered pritzus.
#14. One is not permitted to look at a woman's vagina. This unnatural fear of looking the vagina 'straight in the eye' is probably what is really keeping the lights off. We all know that the vagina has super powers!
Kol Tuv
הלכות איסורי ביאה פרק כא
אשתו של אדם, מותרת היא לו; לפיכך כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו, עושה--בועל בכל עת שירצה, ומנשק בכל אבר שירצה, ובא עליה בין כדרכה, בין שלא כדרכה, בין דרך אברים. ואף על פי כן, מידת חסידות שלא יקל אדם את ראשו לכך, ושיקדש עצמו בשעת תשמיש, כמו שביארנו בהלכות דעות; ולא יסור מדרך העולם ומנהגו, שאין דבר זה אלא כדי לפרות ולרבות
Shlomo, sure you're talking about Yisishkiet here? I'm chasidish, and don't relate with almost anything you've mentioned here, theoretically or in reality.
I guess the Torah is like this big salad. You've chosen to focus on the bidder radish, while I love the taste of the juicy red tomato.
HT,
Are you reading the first 1/2 or the 2nd half. I looked up Hilchos Isurei Biah, too.
Frankly, I find the RamBam to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand, he says that one can do as he/she wishes, and on the other hand he says "BUT" one should mekadesh themselves and not do those things anyway from a sense of piety.
Now, if your Rov tells you that something is mutar, BUT then says that it's better not to do it, or that it's not his minhag to do it, what do most people do? Most would NOT do it. The RamBam is telling you NOT to engage in any act you wish.
The RamBam also mentions that one should not deviate from the 'ways and customs of the world'. Is the RamBam saying that our sexual behavior is guided or dependant upon the norms of the society we live in? I think so! But since when are we to change our rules to match those of the goyim around us, especially when it comes to very intimate matters?
(Perhaps the RamBam didn't want his Moslem neighbors to think that we Jews were 'soft' on our wives, and therefore said "Do what you want with them" and then placed the caviat later.)
Lastly, the RamBam says שאין דבר זה אלא כדי לפרות ולרבות
"sex is only for procreation", therefore it should be approached with the same seriousness as is every other mitzvah.
Kol Tuv
Lastly, the RamBam says שאין דבר זה אלא כדי לפרות ולרבות
"sex is only for procreation", therefore it should be approached with the same seriousness as is every other mitzvah.
Shlomo, if that were truly the case, why is it permissible for postmenopausal women to have sex with their spouse?
You remind me of this Messianic Jew who showed me proof in the Torah that Christ is lord.
HT,
I'm just reading what the RamBam SAYS.
Let's consider a few things before we go further.
A) In the 1100's, the enlightned mentalities that we have become accustomed to today did not exist. To retrofit our understanding into the RamBam's words without considering the context or the audience (who also is subject to context) is probably misguided.
B)Life expectencies in the 1100's were probably low, especially for women (when one considers mortality rates in childbirth). The probablility of a woman living into menopause was maybe not too common.
C)Did people past the age of child bearing even have sex? It is likely we are much more in tune with our sexuality today than we ever have been. I would hope that older couples still 'get it on.'
D) The RamBam says that and man can do "as he wishes" with his wife, which also implies that (according to the derech haolam of the 1100's) that HE makes the choices and she is at his beckon call.
Good questions HT! I'm really glad you brought them up. I looked through the RamBam and didn't mention it because of the above- mentioned reasons.
BTW I am not advocating for one way or the other. I do think it is silly and counter-productive for Judaism to try and make sex (at least for young men) a thing to either fear or become cynical over. If one feels more 'eidel' keeping these chumros, so be it.
Kol Tuv
Shloma, why don't you mention "onah", one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce?
I understand that your personal experiences left you disillusioned and disenfranchised, but projecting those emotions onto a whole religion and people, is being intellectually dishonest.
HT,
My own experiences not withstanding, the Chazal, Rishonim, Poskim, and other Rabonnim say what they say. My personal experience with the axe-wfie was not because of any of these chumros, minhagim, etc. She was just plain crazy and still is.
re: Onah
THAT is an excellent point. I'll have to do some research on it, because my memory is not what it used to be. As I recall, and forgive me if I am wrong, but those three 'things' a man may not reduce came about because of polygamy. Older wives would be left without and replaced by younger wives who would garner the majority of the husband's attention.
Your point is still a very good one. Thanks.
Kol Tuv
Shlomo, the source is from parshas mishpatim regarding the jewish maid-servant. see posik 10 below.
ז וְכִי-יִמְכֹּר אִישׁ אֶת-בִּתּוֹ, לְאָמָה--לֹא תֵצֵא, כְּצֵאת הָעֲבָדִים. 7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do.
ח אִם-רָעָה בְּעֵינֵי אֲדֹנֶיהָ, אֲשֶׁר-לא (לוֹ) יְעָדָהּ--וְהֶפְדָּהּ: לְעַם נָכְרִי לֹא-יִמְשֹׁל לְמָכְרָהּ, בְּבִגְדוֹ-בָהּ. 8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed; to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
ט וְאִם-לִבְנוֹ, יִיעָדֶנָּה--כְּמִשְׁפַּט הַבָּנוֹת, יַעֲשֶׂה-לָּהּ. 9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
י אִם-אַחֶרֶת, יִקַּח-לוֹ--שְׁאֵרָהּ כְּסוּתָהּ וְעֹנָתָהּ, לֹא יִגְרָע. 10 If he take him another wife, her food, her raiment, and her conjugal rights, shall he not diminish.
יא וְאִם-שְׁלָשׁ-אֵלֶּה--לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, לָהּ: וְיָצְאָה חִנָּם, אֵין כָּסֶף. {ס} 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money. {S}
Shlomo, I was writing a post just like this one and the paper blew away. You must have found it. God bless you, this is stuff that just had to be told. From what I've learned, (Shulchan Aruch) it's correct.
My questions to you are. Your WDs are never sexual? Too bad. Then there's the thing about the Rav (Yochanan?) who did it as if he were compelled. I've never been clear about this. Did the original writer mean that he did it 'cuz he was forced to or that he did it with passion. "...could it be the devil in me or is this the way love's supposed to be, I've got the heat wave!
Kol Tuv,
Ben
Ben,
Your pshat might be one way to spin it, but I've never encountered such a taych before. A personal story will illustrate the point.
My axe-wife and I went into marriage counseling shortly after our 2nd anniversary (my 2nd yahrtzeit). We, of course, first went to our Rov, consulted with him and the Rov recommended a frumme marriage counselor. The marriage counselor and the Rov both attempted to make ME feel guilty for having normal, active sexual desire! Back then, I actually thought they were right, and that I was the problem.
Kol Tuv
ITBT,
Since the question seems to apply to you, why don't you find out for yourself.
id like to add that in the chosson shiur i went to the rabbi told me to go to BN and buy a book on sex. He said rav moshe fienstien said in order to be mekayim the mitzvah onah, you better well knew what you were doing.
Secondly, there is gemera in shabbos that shows an amoira teaching sex advice to his daughters. The point is to make the man have a stronger ejaculation to cause pregnancy. Regardless, of what you take away from this, i take away that the amoriam were not afraid of sex or to talk about it.
Finally, I know of gdolim who said you can do what you want with your wife if it pleases her. Its obviously reciprocal. The only issue you need to deal with is where the ejaculate should go. Up to that point, all is fair. In addition, once you have children, things become simpler.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home